Tied Up in Knots, Part 2
In Tied Up In Knots, Part 1, you read about our abrupt loss of 1/3 of the cruising speed of the yacht, for no apparent reason, and our expensive – ultimately fruitless – 10-month Odyssey to locate and correct the problem(s). If you haven't read that post yet, take a moment, and then come back.
We pick up the tale after I inherited Clark Hurley, a most excellent Volvo mechanic introduced to me by the Southern California Carver dealer. Clark went on a speed trial (the first of a half-dozen or so over the next year) and confirmed the lack of performance.
Clark's area of focus, however, was the turbochargers. These big diesels depend upon vast quantities of high pressure air being shoved down their throats in order to develop their rated power and RPM. On our diesels, a very sophisticated electronic control system manages the turbocharger pressure (i.e., the waste-gate control) and the fuel injection. Everything has to be precisely in balance and in spec. And if you read Part 1, you will recall that a mere 50 RPM difference results in a 1-knot change in speed.
Clark quickly discovered that one of the two turbochargers was not delivering the expected manifold pressure at cruising RPMs. And because of the sophistication of the control system, if one turbocharger is "low", then opposite engine automatically retards itself as well. Here's how that happens:
At full throttle, if one turbo is extremely low, its engine develops much less than rated power, so the boat runs slower. Since the boat is running slower, the props are turning at less than the calculated RPM for the throttle setting. In response, the good engine increases its turbocharger boost pressure in an attempt to regain the lost RPM. But within seconds, the good engine exceeds maximum allowable boost pressure, says "Oh Dear!" and dials the power way back – perhaps to about half-throttle equivalent. So, even though the good engine is being commanded to produce full power, it actually produces as little or less power than the bad engine with the low boost pressure. The result: a half-dozen knots in speed – gone in 60 seconds. And it stays that way.
Now, right after Clark discovered the low boost, the suspect turbocharger froze, failed, died, gasped its last breath. This failure took Clark down a several month rathole (considering waiting for parts, repair windows, and availability of various parties for speed trials), as he believed (I disagreed) that the impending failure – perhaps a deteriorating bearing – accounted for the low boost pressure. Sadly, after he got the new turbo installed, the boost was still low.
The next suspect was the waste gate. If you are not familiar with turbocharging, the waste gate is the valve that moves to set the boost pressure to a target value by diverting part of the turbocharger's pressurized air output away from the intake manifold. If the waste gate sticks, the boost pressure becomes uncontrollable by the engine's electronics (or mechanics). It turned out our waste gate was acting up, so it got replaced. That also had no impact. But many more had weeks elapsed.
Now, it gets interesting. Part of the boost pressure regulation system is an electronic sensor that lives at the end of a long, narrow tube (about the diameter of a soda straw) that is taken off the pressure side of the turbo. Since there is moisture in ocean air (imagine that!), and since the turbocharger is just a big compressor, water gets compressed out of the air, and some of it enters this sensor tube. This is salt-laden air, mind you, hence salt-laden water. Well, that saltwater gets forced down the tube and collects at the electronic sensor. Sizzle, sizzle, phizz... The sensor stops working correctly, and the house of turbocards tumbles. Result: inappropriate boost pressures.
This system was actually designed by engineers! Volvo engineers. From that nexus of Swedish technology. Made me stick my engineering degree under a mattress.
Well, I guess Volvo got enough complaints as the field reports started rolling in, so they came up with a fix. They drilled a tiny, catwhisker-sized "weep" hole in a brass hex drain plug that lives at the sensor end of that tube. The hole is not so big that it affects the pressure inside (hence the pressure readings taken by the sensor) but is large enough to allow all moisture to blast out under the high boost pressures. Result: a continuously dry (and suddenly reliable) sensor. Of course, the fact that there was a drain plug in that location to begin with was highly suspicious.
After eliminating and replacing all the truly expensive parts of the the system, Clark finally got to that sensor. Upon removing the old-style drain plug, saltwater flowed right out. The electronic sensor, of course, was severly corroded, beyond dead. Clark shook his head, and told me the whole weep-hole saga. He then ordered a new sensor, and two of the new-style, drilled drain plugs. I think the plugs were about $1.00 each.
When this system went back together, Clark was able to correctly calibrate the boost pressures on both sides, and suddenly, we had our RPMs back, in fact, too many. Seems that now those flatter-pitch props I talked about in Part 1 were overkill.
Not wanting to remove and pound our props back to their original profile, particularly if some future expert told me to reduce the pitch again for some reason, I prevailed upon Carver to arrange for me to purchase a pair of props at dealer cost. Perhaps to help put to bed what was now about a 20-month ordeal, and a lot of letters and emails to read from me, and maybe because it was partially on their advice that I flattened the props to begin with, they came through. And with the original props – and a working turbocharger pressure sensor – the boat attained a cruising speed of 18.5 to 19 knots.
And while I still wanted to know where the rest went, with one exception, I stopped chasing the speed problem. Instead, I had the boat weighed at the next haulout. Against a factory nominal weight of 47,500 lbs, our boat weighed 52,000 lbs. This weight – which included the new, improved davit system dragging down the stern (see The Pickle Fork, October 1, 2004) – probably accounted for the difference. I did note, however, that I had run out of travel on the trim tabs, and so in December, 2006 replaced the 66% span trim tabs with 100% span, which helped (see photo).
As I wind down here, however, I want you to understand the irony of all of this. In the end, it was a tiny hole drilled in a 1/4-inch brass hex plug that, had it been present originally, would have saved nearly two years of frustrating investigations, hundreds of man hours of my time and that of several mechanics, and a breathtaking amount of money. If you have a turbocharged diesel or two in your yacht, ask your mechanic about whether or not there is anything equivalent to the system on the Volvo-Penta TAMD74P-A. And if you don't have that little plug with the weep hole, install it immediately. It will cost you just a few dollars. But oh, the potential savings!
15 Comments:
Skipper,
Let me again extend my thanks for your articulate, well-documented account of the challenges in de-bugging this yacht.
I'm in the middle of investigating a Carver 500 with the same configuration of your boat. The port windows leak so copiously that the wood trim inside the salon is stained. I can't wait to get into restoring and re-bedding those rascals, not to mention the forward windows whose restoration you detailed.
Many thanks for sharing your experience so that the rest of us can increase our knowledge base.
All the best,
Rob Lewis
By Anonymous, at 5:00 AM
Skipper,
I just found your blog and noticed the last posting was in 2007. Are you still monitoring this blog?
I am looking at upsizing from a 01' Sea Ray 420AC to a Carver 506. I am not real boat savy but am attracted to the Carver 506 as a nice upgrade. Do you have any suggestions as to a particular year model and engine preference?
I hope you are still involved in this Carver Yacht blog and thank you for the information you have shared.
Bill
By Bill McNabb, at 12:48 PM
Bill,
I am still monitoring this blog. I have more stories in me, a few written, but have been preoccupied.
I think this is an outstanding yacht, once debugged. From talking to other 506 owners, I'd recommend the largest motors possible. I've lost 4 knots off the top end, probably because I added 10% to the displacement with personal "stuff", and I have the Volvo TAMD-74P/A diesels. 2000 and later on the year, look for well maintained, and an impeccable survey.
S.
By Skipper, at 8:29 PM
As a Marine Surveyor researching a problem with a pair of Volvo TAMD 74's I found your blog...Great information, well written and presented.
Ira Jones SAMS-AMS
By Unknown, at 9:07 AM
Skipper,
I just stumbled on your blog and found it very interesting and informative. Imwould you know if my Volvo TAMD 63 P also have this little tube? I was cruising yesterday coming back from Catalina to Huntington Beach when I heard a whoosh and immediately lost propulsion on my starboard engine. My wife ran to the stern thinking our RIB had exploded, but everything was normal back there.
All my gauges were normal, temp, transmission pressure, oil temp etc...
My initial thought was that we lost a prop, but since I was did not hear any loud banging I quickly discounted that theory. I am thinking the waste gate blew its pressure possibly due to high turbo boost?
Like you I spend an ungodly amount of money to get my engine obtaining WOT rpm, new turbos, new transmission couplings, new raw water pumps, countless seatrial hours , re-pitched props,
Last week I had my Volvo tech verify that the turbos were producing the correct boost and the EGT was within the norms..
But I am rambling on, would have any idea why my waste gate would dump its pressure while cruising at 400 rpm under WOT?
Thank you
Jacques Grandjean
By Anonymous, at 7:35 PM
Skipper,
I am having the same problem on my carver 450 voyager. It has twin Volvo tamd 74p engines. I've looked for the boost sensor but can't seem to locate them. Could you post a photo or diagram showing where they are.
Thanks
By Les, at 10:00 AM
What a great post nice job, Greg Burkey from bigdieselmarine.com
By Anonymous, at 2:23 PM
Skipper,
I just finished reading your posts from start (June 2002) to finish (April 2007). To say I've learned a lot would be an understatement. For the past couple of years I've scoured the internet for "real-world" owner experiences with their chosen yacht make/model, as I research my first (small) yacht purchase. Carver has been on my short list and, while your posts don't necessarily disqualify it, the lessons you've learned and shared are certainly food for thought that I will keep in mind for ALL boat builder models currently under consideration.
By Anonymous, at 8:21 AM
@Anonymous,
In spite of my candid comments about my experiences, I highly recommend Carver yachts (or their successor, Marquis), and would buy another one. The main reason there have been no more posts from me in a while is that I got everything debugged.
@les,
As to technical advice about anyone's engines -- I'm not a mechanic; I just report what I have learned from MY mechanics as we troubleshoot. Any competent Volvo mechanic, for example, should be able to relate my experiences to your engine.
@jacques,
No idea why you'd lose boost pressure, although it has happened to me, as well. One time, the wastegate apparently just stuck, and several others, a loss of power in the OTHER engine caused the good engine to reduce boost to match.
I do have a recent (2014) situation that merits a post: the circular clamp that attaches that massive exhaust pipe to the low pressure side of the turbo cracked and fell of when I was running 200 RPM below WOT. I thought I'd had an explosion in the engine room, and BLACK smoke (soot, as it turns out) started pouring out the cabin. I was six miles at sea, and IMMEDIATELY shut everything down. Called the USCG and let them know my situation, and was advised to remain powered down, and wait for a tow, which I did. In the approximately 10 seconds between the "explosion" and my killing both engines, a vast quantity of black soot permeated EVERY nook and cranny of the yacht, including inside lockers and drawers. Not a joke, every single item without exception had to be taken ashore, and washed with soap and water, or, in the case of fabrics (clothes, bedding, etc.) drycleaned. Then a team had to go through the entire yacht and manually remove greasy black soot from everywhere. The engine room was literally jet black, as if it had been spray painted.
This all occurred because a $10 (or $20 -- I forget what I paid) stainless-steel clamp failed underway. I subsequently learned that I was not the first that this had happened to, and that that particular clamp had been redesigned. I replaced ALL my turbo clamps with the improved version, and carry two spares. And, checking the security of those clamps is now part of my "preflight". I recommend that replacement to everyone with the TAMD74P/A. Your mechanic should be able to research if you have the old or the new style. (My clamp failed in the body of the clamp, with a spiral fracture about 4" long that opened the clamp and allowed it to drop into the bilge. Of course, the 6" exhaust elbow dropped free, and the turbo, running at jet-engine speeds, pumped the black soot that my engine was producing, and normally ends up mixing with seawater in the wet exhaust, right into the engine room. And since the engine room atmospheric pressure runs a tad above ambient due to the four blowers, all that soot was literally forced through the rest of the vessel in seconds).
By Skipper, at 11:57 PM
Hello all, all very interesting and informative. I have a 530 Carver with TAMD 122 p-b diesels. I have battled poor performance and hazing black smoke for some time now. My props had been flattened by previous owner trying to fix the problem. I have done injectors and aftercoolers. No luck. Now I have one turbo off having it rebuilt. I just can't seem to find anyone else who has these larger motors in a 530 as apposed to the smaller Cummins. It would be great to here from someone who I could compare notes with. Any responses would be appreciated, thanks. Dave Mock
By Unknown, at 12:38 AM
Hello all, I tried this once but it wouldn't publish. Is anyone monitoring this conversation anymore? I have a Carver 530 with tamd 122 p-b's that have performance problems. Was hoping to find someone else with similar power configuration and compare notes. Most of these boats have the smaller 450 hp Cummins. Thanks, Dave.
By Unknown, at 12:46 AM
Hello all, all very interesting and informative. I have a 530 Carver with TAMD 122 p-b diesels. I have battled poor performance and hazing black smoke for some time now. My props had been flattened by previous owner trying to fix the problem. I have done injectors and aftercoolers. No luck. Now I have one turbo off having it rebuilt. I just can't seem to find anyone else who has these larger motors in a 530 as apposed to the smaller Cummins. It would be great to here from someone who I could compare notes with. Any responses would be appreciated, thanks. Dave Mock
By Unknown, at 12:46 AM
"Report from the Bilge" continues to get a lot of readers, and is casually monitored. However, other than what you read here, I have no advice to give, suggesting you find the best mechanic you can.
Respectfully,
Skipper
By Skipper, at 8:14 AM
I am in the process of buying a Carver 506 in Stockton California. I came upon your blog and found the information very informative. After reading a few posts I noticed that the boat I am buying had a similar history to your boat. I was told the boat was from Canada but had been recently brought up from Southern California. This seemed quite a coincidence. Then I noticed the name on your boat was High Concept and I realized it is the same boat. The person I am buying the boat from, Andre, owned the boat for 2 years. He has put in about $50k in upgrades. Unfortunately he sold the “pickle fork” davits. I so very much appreciate all of the work you put into writing this blog. Having this information is priceless. It is also reassuring to know that a previous owner took such good care of the boat.
By Power Trip, at 5:11 PM
@Unknown 9-22-20: The big question for Andre is, "Did you ever have the suspected bad motor overhauled, or did it turn out to be unnecessary?". If he had it overhauled, be sure to get copies of all of the yard bills. I'd be curious as to what the "$50K in upgrades" were, exactly. Too bad about the "pickle fork"; those were great davits, especially for heavy weather on the ocean.
You're buying a wonderful boat, IMHO, especially if Andre maintained it as religiously as I did (I had a full-time boat manager who was a wizard yacht maintainer. If you want to chat more (I do), send me a friend request on facebook (https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=704641742 is my profile), I'll PM you back to exchange contact info that doesn't need to be posted here.
By Skipper, at 6:13 PM
Post a Comment
<< Home